The United Church of Canada is currently dealing with a rather amusing problem: One of the ministers, it seems, is an atheist. (Only one? many of us wondered aloud.) This is only slightly more predictable than the very straight-faced news coverage the “problem” received:
An ordained minister of the United Church of Canada (UCC) recently stated that she believes in neither God nor the Bible. Gretta Vosper, minister of West Hill United Church, says that how you live is more important than what you believe.
“The belief that the Bible is the authoritative word of God is one such presupposition that must be let go if we are going to seek the truth,” Vosper writes in her book, With or Without God: Why the Way We Live Is More Important Than What We Believe.
David W. Allen, Executive Secretary of the Toronto Conference of the UCC, says there is no single reaction to what Vosper is saying, either within the UCC or outside of it.
“Some people find her refreshing and candid, and have expressed appreciation for the care they have received from her and the West Hill United Church congregation,” says Allen. “Others, though, have expressed serious doubts about how a minister can say some of the things she says about God and Jesus, and still function as a minister within the church.”
Allen recognizes that this is a stressful time for Vosper and many others—no matter where they stand on what she says. He encourages those who are invested in the matter to maintain thoughts and/or prayers for Vosper and also for the United Church of Canada.
“My hope is that at the end of the process, we’ll have a good reason for maintaining her as a minister – or we’ll have a good reason for saying she is not to continue in that role,” says Allen. “What we have not done is to pre-judge the outcome and we, like many others, await the recommendations that will eventually come to us.”
I would make a comment here about the state of the Christian church in the West, but the United Church of Canada cannot, with any real seriousness, be called a Christian church. That’s why they have to “deliberate” about what to do about a minister who doesn’t believe in God, the Bible, or Jesus. You’d think, wouldn’t you, that belief in God and Christ was sort of a prerequisite for being “Christian”? Then again, the United Church has been abandoning any semblance of theology about as fast as people have been abandoning their church. That’s why thousands of United Church properties are for sale—because people are recognizing the United Church for what it is: A spiritual lapdog of the Sexual Revolution.
After all, false prophets always come in handy when you want to begin sacrificing children, and in Revolutions, the children are always the first to go. It’s why the United Church backed Henry Morgentaler, Canada’s corpse-producing feticide pioneer.
Their position on the intentional destruction of children created in God’s image, after all, is this:
a moral responsibility not to bring an unwanted child into the world
recognition that there are situations when a woman and her partner may be in extremely difficult circumstances where they must decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy
an emphasis on the decision to end a pregnancy being made thoughtfully by a woman in consultation with her doctor
a call for adequate counselling, support, and services to be provided by medical facilities and social services for all processes related to conception and childbirth, including abortion, across Canada
a call for thorough education regarding responsible sexuality and conception
a call on the Canadian government not to criminalize abortion
Abortion, of course, is a demonic inversion of the Gospel message. Abortion protestors often quote the words of Jesus–“This is my body!”—but their message is one of destruction rather than one of sacrificial love. The United Church made the most basic laws of God—don’t kill your own children!—null and void a long time ago.
At least their atheist ministers won’t ascribe these repulsive and bloody positions to the Divine, and can claim to represent only themselves. It’s about time they were a bit more honest.
The fact is that the United Church is not united. Theology is very diverse – depends largely on what a congregation’s leadership will accept. There are many people and ministers in the United Church who would agree with you. Various bodies exist with the UCC (Covenating Congregations, Community of Concern), that do not support eg the appointment of atheists as Christian ministers.
What you say is in accordance with the foundational doctrine of the UCC. However, there are 4 levels of decision making: the local congregation, the presbytery (local district), the conference (like a provincial level), and the general conference – national level. These different levels have different areas of authority – some shared, some not.
The media ignores all the levels except the national level which endorses all sort of things that they in fact have no control over.
For example, marriage policy is up to congregations to decide regardless of what General Conference says. Many will not perform same sex marriages or blessings. Surprised?
You can change this by joining a UCC (preferably en masse) and taking roles on the Board and a being the Presbytery rep, Conference Rep, etc. The churches are very much in need of people willing to do these tasks, and of younger members. Really.
Many very solid Christians got burned out volunteering at tasks mainly directed at maintaining the minister high (eg $70-80+K in urban areas) pay. Selling property to maintain the pay levels happened because there were not enough people coming to church to cover the ever increasing pay scale, especially as the ministers often are doing next to nothing to feed and grow their starving, shrinking flock.
It’s been said that “the United Church is the NDP at prayer”. I think that the same can be said now about the Anglican Church and the Liberal Party. The problem with liberals is that they are “spiritual geldings”,
they can’t reproduce.
The only answer to the problems in The United Church Of Canada is prayer and a total revival like in the days of
John and Charles Wesley, who were the founding fathers of the Methodist Church, until the name change in
1949. If these brothers knew today what is going on the UCC they would roll over in their graves.
We are, without any doubt whatsoever, living in the days of Matthew 24….which is more up to date than the newspapers of tomorrow, and beyond
God said in the days before the return of His son Jesus Christ, that even the very elect would be deceived, and
people would be turning away from the truth as revealed in his word, the Holy Bible.
I wonder about the UC Minister (how could I say a Minister)….where did she think she came from….a monkey??
It’s so sad, beyond words to say the very least.
There is a Hell to shun and a Heaven to gain. There is NO in between. How can any person go to a church that is suppose to be preaching God’s word in its’ entirety, and call themselves Christian…it’s called OXYMORON!
Dear Servant of God
Calvary greetings to you in the Matchless Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Our Savior count it all joy and a blessings and l give God all the praise, glory and honor for leading us to your website, I can truly testify that you stand for God, in truth and spirit. Am Pastor Geoffrey of Hope fellowship church in Kenya. I give God all the Glory Divinely allowing us to meet here.
Our hearts desire. Hunger and thirst to know God more through fellowship and teachings. How we pray that our Lord open doors for our churches may join hands through affiliation so that we may be enlightened mentally, healed emotionally and restore hope to the less privileged in our communities.
If God provides the opportunity we beseech that Man of God you make a trip here and share the TRUTH OF God with the brethren, YOUR FELLOWSHIP WILL BE OUR JOY AND DELIGHT. For indeed as you believe that the word of God should be made available to all mankind. Our ministry through a revelation to my wife and I we are committed, in helping them who are orphans, and we prayerfully seek like minded ministry to stand with us in this work in prayer and in teaching God’s people to fear Him and love HIM with ALL THEIR MINDS and soul.
A ministry well done by His faithful servants brings GLORY to Christ We shall be blessed to work together brethren, and Lord shall be glorified, happy to hear from you. May Grace be with you?
What would Jusus do? Would he castagate and show hatred toward this church? I am affiliated with another church which houses in the United Church. I see evidence all the time of the Christian connections of the United Church. This is hate speak to suggest that United Church does not act in accordance with Christian principles. Sad commentary. Again, what would Jesus say and do…he would support the right of diversity. Sad and shame for those who show hatred and prejudice toward the United Church.
It isn’t a real church. And they ceased listening to Scripture a very long time ago. The article speaks for itself. But there are others–including one on a recent atheist pastor of the United Church.
Grew up in Canadian Memorial United Church on W15th & Burrard in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Am attached to the place is where my parents married & we were baptized too. But some things shock me when I’m there. Minister sais, “That guy on the stained glass window”, instead of saying, ‘Jesus’, why? Hymns, ‘Mother God, Father God. Older lady looks very old fashioned comes up sais, “We have practicing homosexuals here, are you homosexual, it’s ok”, that’s how she started the conversation. In the 1980s the congregation split right in half, they went to nearby Fairview Presbyterian Church but left after a while. Canadian Memorial had to sell the Church Hall. Very sad.
Demonics and satanists have flocked to churches to preach the false religion of satan. There is no other explanation, however there is the Biblical warning, that because of man’s further fall into the flesh of sinfulness and ungodly ways, including the evil, satanic scourge of abortion, that, “THEY WILL BE RULED BY WOMEN AND CHILDREN”. So we see this Bible Prophecy being fulfilled today, and the most impactful of these woman and child “rulers” are neither moral, nor wise.
The fact is that the United Church is not united. Theology is very diverse – depends largely on what a congregation’s leadership will accept. There are many people and ministers in the United Church who would agree with you. Various bodies exist with the UCC (Covenating Congregations, Community of Concern), that do not support eg the appointment of atheists as Christian ministers.
What you say is in accordance with the foundational doctrine of the UCC. However, there are 4 levels of decision making: the local congregation, the presbytery (local district), the conference (like a provincial level), and the general conference – national level. These different levels have different areas of authority – some shared, some not.
The media ignores all the levels except the national level which endorses all sort of things that they in fact have no control over.
For example, marriage policy is up to congregations to decide regardless of what General Conference says. Many will not perform same sex marriages or blessings. Surprised?
You can change this by joining a UCC (preferably en masse) and taking roles on the Board and a being the Presbytery rep, Conference Rep, etc. The churches are very much in need of people willing to do these tasks, and of younger members. Really.
Many very solid Christians got burned out volunteering at tasks mainly directed at maintaining the minister high (eg $70-80+K in urban areas) pay. Selling property to maintain the pay levels happened because there were not enough people coming to church to cover the ever increasing pay scale, especially as the ministers often are doing next to nothing to feed and grow their starving, shrinking flock.
It’s been said that “the United Church is the NDP at prayer”. I think that the same can be said now about the Anglican Church and the Liberal Party. The problem with liberals is that they are “spiritual geldings”,
they can’t reproduce.
The only answer to the problems in The United Church Of Canada is prayer and a total revival like in the days of
John and Charles Wesley, who were the founding fathers of the Methodist Church, until the name change in
1949. If these brothers knew today what is going on the UCC they would roll over in their graves.
We are, without any doubt whatsoever, living in the days of Matthew 24….which is more up to date than the newspapers of tomorrow, and beyond
God said in the days before the return of His son Jesus Christ, that even the very elect would be deceived, and
people would be turning away from the truth as revealed in his word, the Holy Bible.
I wonder about the UC Minister (how could I say a Minister)….where did she think she came from….a monkey??
It’s so sad, beyond words to say the very least.
There is a Hell to shun and a Heaven to gain. There is NO in between. How can any person go to a church that is suppose to be preaching God’s word in its’ entirety, and call themselves Christian…it’s called OXYMORON!
Dear Servant of God
Calvary greetings to you in the Matchless Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Our Savior count it all joy and a blessings and l give God all the praise, glory and honor for leading us to your website, I can truly testify that you stand for God, in truth and spirit. Am Pastor Geoffrey of Hope fellowship church in Kenya. I give God all the Glory Divinely allowing us to meet here.
Our hearts desire. Hunger and thirst to know God more through fellowship and teachings. How we pray that our Lord open doors for our churches may join hands through affiliation so that we may be enlightened mentally, healed emotionally and restore hope to the less privileged in our communities.
If God provides the opportunity we beseech that Man of God you make a trip here and share the TRUTH OF God with the brethren, YOUR FELLOWSHIP WILL BE OUR JOY AND DELIGHT. For indeed as you believe that the word of God should be made available to all mankind. Our ministry through a revelation to my wife and I we are committed, in helping them who are orphans, and we prayerfully seek like minded ministry to stand with us in this work in prayer and in teaching God’s people to fear Him and love HIM with ALL THEIR MINDS and soul.
A ministry well done by His faithful servants brings GLORY to Christ We shall be blessed to work together brethren, and Lord shall be glorified, happy to hear from you. May Grace be with you?
Yours brother
Pastor Geoffrey
What would Jusus do? Would he castagate and show hatred toward this church? I am affiliated with another church which houses in the United Church. I see evidence all the time of the Christian connections of the United Church. This is hate speak to suggest that United Church does not act in accordance with Christian principles. Sad commentary. Again, what would Jesus say and do…he would support the right of diversity. Sad and shame for those who show hatred and prejudice toward the United Church.
It isn’t a real church. And they ceased listening to Scripture a very long time ago. The article speaks for itself. But there are others–including one on a recent atheist pastor of the United Church.
Grew up in Canadian Memorial United Church on W15th & Burrard in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Am attached to the place is where my parents married & we were baptized too. But some things shock me when I’m there. Minister sais, “That guy on the stained glass window”, instead of saying, ‘Jesus’, why? Hymns, ‘Mother God, Father God. Older lady looks very old fashioned comes up sais, “We have practicing homosexuals here, are you homosexual, it’s ok”, that’s how she started the conversation. In the 1980s the congregation split right in half, they went to nearby Fairview Presbyterian Church but left after a while. Canadian Memorial had to sell the Church Hall. Very sad.
Demonics and satanists have flocked to churches to preach the false religion of satan. There is no other explanation, however there is the Biblical warning, that because of man’s further fall into the flesh of sinfulness and ungodly ways, including the evil, satanic scourge of abortion, that, “THEY WILL BE RULED BY WOMEN AND CHILDREN”. So we see this Bible Prophecy being fulfilled today, and the most impactful of these woman and child “rulers” are neither moral, nor wise.